Episode 138. Read or subscribe: https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/slavery-and-jonathan-edwards.
16 COMMENTS
This was really encouraging to me. I've been feeling pretty bad because of a recurrent that I have been fighting throughout my entire christian life. The devil has been trying to put on my head that I'm not saved, but I'm certain that I have works in my life that are proof to my faith. I have so many other areas in which the Holy Spirit has been working on me, and one specific area that I still need to keep fighting against, but He is still God and His sovereign will is beyond my capabilities of understanding.
I still truly don’t understand how you can read and have admiration for someone like Edwards or Calvin. If Ted Bundy had been a brilliant theologian and faithful exegete, all while brutally murdering women, would you admire him also and read any theological books he might have written? I’m personally doubtful that Edwards or Calvin had a saving faith in Jesus.
Could it be that Edwards owned slaves because he thought like many other patriarchal White men did during the “founding” times of the United States if America? That he thought the pursuit of happiness and holiness applied to White men and women and children, only. The same as our pastors, governors, senators and the like do, today? E.g., the safe practicing of second amendment rights only apply to the White “majority”, and not to the people of the United States, wholly.
Can I just say I LOVE THIS MAN of GOD! I always think oh that question is going to stomp Dr. Piper, not so! It just reminded me on how he handle that question about what do you say to love ones at a funeral where you know their beloved was not saved. Dr. Piper I will not idolize you, but sir you are a teacher from GOD! As a black man in the US where slavery was sinful, your discussion in answering that question was just GODLY wisdom! You cease to amaze me!
If it was the case that we can’t learn from people who committed an act or more of immorality then all education would have to be shut down right now. Full stop.
What we do is abstract the good from people, differentiate the good of that person and leave out the trash. The same thing we do with an apple or a salad. Our body recognizes what’s good, absorbs it, and then jettisons what’s not good.
It’s that simple. But I understand there are those who think with how they feel. And if you feel bad about what person xyz has done and so what learn from what they have to offer then eventually you’ll learn from no one and be the arbiter of your own truth. And who are you exactly?
And for those of you reading this and agree with me, then great but I think you’ll further agree that we, who are more into the ideas, need to learn to feel and to feel what others feel and be patient with them; go slow.
William Wilberforce (1759-1833), the famous British abolitionist and Christian, is often brought up as an example of Christianity producing a movement against slavery. The main problem with this view is that nearly everyone in Europe and America was a Christian, the vast majority of whom were not against the practice. A very tiny amount of believers had opposed slavery in the 1500 years that Christianity had dominated Europe since the Emperor Constantine made this religion legal within the Roman Empire in 313 CE/AD. In the late 1700s and early 1800s, European abolitionists learned that biblical passages did not help their cause. They eventually began primarily using secular arguments by necessity. One major reason that it took Wilberforce 46 years to convince his countrymen to complete the abolition process in the British Empire was because a huge percentage of the clergy, government leadership, and the general public stood firmly on the view that slavery and racial inequality were natural, culturally normative, and biblical. Along with their Christian ancestors for hundreds of years that created and sustained New World colonial slavery with biblical justifications, the conservatives in Britain and America were among the main forces that resisted 18th and 19th century abolition laws. During Wilberforce’s sustained and rigorous efforts, it took 20 years (1787-1807) to get the slave trade legally ended and another 26 years (1807-1833) to make slavery itself illegal. Why would God provide such a misleading revelation? Or, in this case, is it more accurate to say that modern Christians developed a more heightened humanitarian sensibility because of the rise of Enlightenment humanism?
Jesus never condemned slavery in the bible….why not? maybe because slavery in and of itself is not sinful….Abuses of slaves are but the institution is not
Following the Pipers line of thinking we might as well try and get the positives out of pedophiles or murderous Nazis! Mr Piper is in need of some good biblical counselling, Paul has stated very simply in 1 Corinthians: "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal, If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.", using Pauls line of thinking the only conclusion I can reach is that Edwards is a noisy gong.
To automatically presume Edwards was a bad person because he owned slaves sounds far fetched. I am not defending him but I think with his understanding of the scriptures his slaves probably had the best conditions compared to other slaves. They might have been indentured servants, who knows🤷♂️.
This man is not called to preach and God will judge him harshly: Jeremiah 23:21-40 "25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, and say: I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, and that prophesy the delusions of their own heart?"
John Edwards committeed no fault, GoD'S SOVEREIGN WILL allowed for his slavery for his glory. Sola Scriptura is God's WILL for this as God Willed John Piper to lead his son to damnation, or perhaps John Piper is willed to be damned. This man is weak and utterly abandoned the question. This is the legacy of 1517, a godless constitution, and calvinism. Martin Luther turned to the state for his protest, John Calvin merged church and state into a behomoth tyranny, Zwinglie went to war with the state, and Henry VIII was the state that destroyed the Chruch in England. The unintended consequences of this film is that it goes back deep into history and will give great evidence against the 1517 protest of how 1) it is not true Christianity and 2) the Protestant Reformation is anti christ. John Macarthur unexpectedly will strike one of the greatest blows against non apstolic Christianity. To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.
Sounds like Edwards refused to love his fellow man. Probably even used slave Bibles. If 1 Corinthians 5:11 isn’t for believers like him then who’s it for?
This was really encouraging to me. I've been feeling pretty bad because of a recurrent that I have been fighting throughout my entire christian life. The devil has been trying to put on my head that I'm not saved, but I'm certain that I have works in my life that are proof to my faith. I have so many other areas in which the Holy Spirit has been working on me, and one specific area that I still need to keep fighting against, but He is still God and His sovereign will is beyond my capabilities of understanding.
I still truly don’t understand how you can read and have admiration for someone like Edwards or Calvin. If Ted Bundy had been a brilliant theologian and faithful exegete, all while brutally murdering women, would you admire him also and read any theological books he might have written? I’m personally doubtful that Edwards or Calvin had a saving faith in Jesus.
Could it be that Edwards owned slaves because he thought like many other patriarchal White men did during the “founding” times of the United States if America? That he thought the pursuit of happiness and holiness applied to White men and women and children, only. The same as our pastors, governors, senators and the like do, today? E.g., the safe practicing of second amendment rights only apply to the White “majority”, and not to the people of the United States, wholly.
Pastor John, how can Jesus be born sinless if Mary is a sinner?
Really good. So thankful for this teaching. Let’s check our blind spots.
Can I just say I LOVE THIS MAN of GOD! I always think oh that question is going to stomp Dr. Piper, not so! It just reminded me on how he handle that question about what do you say to love ones at a funeral where you know their beloved was not saved. Dr. Piper I will not idolize you, but sir you are a teacher from GOD! As a black man in the US where slavery was sinful, your discussion in answering that question was just GODLY wisdom! You cease to amaze me!
If it was the case that we can’t learn from people who committed an act or more of immorality then all education would have to be shut down right now. Full stop.
What we do is abstract the good from people, differentiate the good of that person and leave out the trash. The same thing we do with an apple or a salad. Our body recognizes what’s good, absorbs it, and then jettisons what’s not good.
It’s that simple. But I understand there are those who think with how they feel. And if you feel bad about what person xyz has done and so what learn from what they have to offer then eventually you’ll learn from no one and be the arbiter of your own truth. And who are you exactly?
And for those of you reading this and agree with me, then great but I think you’ll further agree that we, who are more into the ideas, need to learn to feel and to feel what others feel and be patient with them; go slow.
William Wilberforce (1759-1833), the famous British abolitionist and Christian, is often brought up as an example of Christianity producing a movement against slavery. The main problem with this view is that nearly everyone in Europe and America was a Christian, the vast majority of whom were not against the practice. A very tiny amount of believers had opposed slavery in the 1500 years that Christianity had dominated Europe since the Emperor Constantine made this religion legal within the Roman Empire in 313 CE/AD. In the late 1700s and early 1800s, European abolitionists learned that biblical passages did not help their cause. They eventually began primarily using secular arguments by necessity. One major reason that it took Wilberforce 46 years to convince his countrymen to complete the abolition process in the British Empire was because a huge percentage of the clergy, government leadership, and the general public stood firmly on the view that slavery and racial inequality were natural, culturally normative, and biblical. Along with their Christian ancestors for hundreds of years that created and sustained New World colonial slavery with biblical justifications, the conservatives in Britain and America were among the main forces that resisted 18th and 19th century abolition laws. During Wilberforce’s sustained and rigorous efforts, it took 20 years (1787-1807) to get the slave trade legally ended and another 26 years (1807-1833) to make slavery itself illegal. Why would God provide such a misleading revelation? Or, in this case, is it more accurate to say that modern Christians developed a more heightened humanitarian sensibility because of the rise of Enlightenment humanism?
Jesus never condemned slavery in the bible….why not? maybe because slavery in and of itself is not sinful….Abuses of slaves are but the institution is not
A revival led by a slave owner. What a joke.
Following the Pipers line of thinking we might as well try and get the positives out of pedophiles or murderous Nazis! Mr Piper is in need of some good biblical counselling, Paul has stated very simply in 1 Corinthians: "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal, If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.", using Pauls line of thinking the only conclusion I can reach is that Edwards is a noisy gong.
A true masterclass in beating around the bush. Maybe the best I've ever seen or heard! It is almost impressive.
To automatically presume Edwards was a bad person because he owned slaves sounds far fetched. I am not defending him but I think with his understanding of the scriptures his slaves probably had the best conditions compared to other slaves. They might have been indentured servants, who knows🤷♂️.
This man is not called to preach and God will judge him harshly: Jeremiah 23:21-40
"25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, and say: I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, and that prophesy the delusions of their own heart?"
John Edwards committeed no fault, GoD'S SOVEREIGN WILL allowed for his slavery for his glory. Sola Scriptura is God's WILL for this as God Willed John Piper to lead his son to damnation, or perhaps John Piper is willed to be damned. This man is weak and utterly abandoned the question.
This is the legacy of 1517, a godless constitution, and calvinism. Martin Luther turned to the state for his protest, John Calvin merged church and state into a behomoth tyranny, Zwinglie went to war with the state, and Henry VIII was the state that destroyed the Chruch in England. The unintended consequences of this film is that it goes back deep into history and will give great evidence against the 1517 protest of how 1) it is not true Christianity and 2) the Protestant Reformation is anti christ. John Macarthur unexpectedly will strike one of the greatest blows against non apstolic Christianity. To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.
Sounds like Edwards refused to love his fellow man. Probably even used slave Bibles. If 1 Corinthians 5:11 isn’t for believers like him then who’s it for?