In this livestreamed response to an article written by Sean Luke of Anglican Aesthetics, River Devereux goes through the theology …
45 COMMENTS
God is both love and truth; you cannot separate one from the other or pit one against the other. Jesus, who perfectly reveals God’s love, also speaks about Hell and judgment more than anyone else in Scripture. It would be immoral not to introduce people to Jonathan Edwards — the consequences are real. I'm gonna listen to him right now, so I stay on the right track.
Years ago I was steeped in the Puritan tradition through the influence of preachers like John Piper. It seems to me that this kind of thinking isn’t unique to Edwards among the Puritans. I remember feeling anxiety over the genuineness of my faith because of reading theologians like Edwards, John Owen and Thomas Watson. I almost abandoned Christianity over this wicked theology. Praise God because he led me to Anglicanism and a right view of the Sacraments. I don’t know where I’d be now if I kept down that path.
“He was product of his time.” So were the Pharisees. We’re not supposed to be products of this time, but of the kingdom of heaven. And as far as hell, Jesus preached hell, and more than others in Scripture, yes… BUT he did not preach to revel in it, but to SAVE us from it, as one would keep speaking to us that we’re in the wrong lane and if we don’t move over we’ll die. They don’t hate us, they love us! Truly an arch-heretic. Hopefully he got to see how truly wrong he was, in the presence of the all loving God
God is love but the Bible is clear about him hating the wicked not just wickedness…. Maybe we can have some humility and realize Gods attributes are not fully comprehensible. With that said yeah a lot of people influenced by Edwards (like Piper and Paul Washer) are highly problematic teachers
Thank you River for being a contemporary voice to help me actually believe the popular evangelical slogan “God is good, all the time”. It’s no wonder these great “awakenings” were such short lived spurts in religiosity that ended in massive deconstruction and “burned over” districts. Fortunately God was able to wrought some good out of them but man you have to wonder what the church would be like if she wholesale adopted the theology of a Gregory of Nyssa or Isaac the Syrian
Listening to this honestly made me feel sorry for him. I know he probably caused much harm to others, and we need to sympathize with the victims, but clearly he himself was a victim of severe deception and confusion. I wonder what his post-mortem fate was…
Hi River, great video. I’ve been enjoying a lot of your content. I’ve been thinking through many of the same theological issues as you have in terms of application of the sermon on the mount, prompted by readings of the ante-nicene Christians. I’m also an Anglican minister and would love the chance to chat 1:1 about the practical ministry consequences from some of these convictions. Is there a way for you to message with your email to arrange a chat? Every blessing. Ryan
On the topic of slavery, how do you think about Abraham’s treatment of Hagar? Abraham is regarded as a great figure in the Christian tradition but had intercourse with his female slave Hagar (which would essentially constitute rape). Although I have read a paper that suggests the biblical text holds Hagar in a high esteem, having her foreshadow the oppression of Israel under Egypt and the exodus. Although Paul’s allegorizing of her narrative seems to paint her in a more negative light in contrast.
This type of insecurity about salvation, and being inside or outside the true church. gave me constant panic attacks and heightened anxiety for a few months earlier this year, felt like I was constantly arguing with Satan himself. Thank the Lord for David Bentley Hart, even though I do not agree with everything he says. I now know there are other ways of seeing the world and humanity, rather than this totally depraved doom. I have taken a liking to Fr. John Behr and his writings. Suprised by Joy Fr. Aiden Kimel is another goody. St. Maximus, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Irenaeus, St. Athanasius have the goods too.
As soon as i saw the picture of that dear child of God on the wall, my heart warmed. I can't think of two more diametrically opposed portayals of our Lord than those of Edwards and MacDonald. Diametrically opossed, not as holiness against love, but as darkness against light. Our God is holy, and fearsome – and nothing but good in his heart, so much more then we ever dare to believe. Looking forward to seeing this video in the coming time.
You misrepresented why Edwards was dismissed in 1750, he was dismissed because he restored the standard of closed communion, only admitting those with a credible profession of faith. This is standard reformed teaching. He was going against his grandfather Solomon Stoddard’s teaching of the Halfway Covenant which was open communion to a level of having open unbelievers take communion because he saw it as a converting ordinance.
You would do well to read Edwards’s Freedom of the Will, Religious Affections, Charity and Its Fruits, his sermon Qualifications for a Full Communion in the Church, his sermon The Sovereignty of God in Salvation, his letter to James Robe on How God Gives us Assurance.
The central problem with this critique is that it places fallen human moral intuition above divine revelation. Edwards did not teach that God is mere arbitrary power, nor that the saints delight in suffering for suffering’s sake. He taught that God is perfectly holy, just, merciful, and sovereign, and that the redeemed will finally rejoice in the righteousness of His judgments. Revelation 19 itself depicts heaven praising God because “his judgments are true and just.”
And Romans 9 directly answers the objection to unconditional election: “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” Paul does not retreat from God’s sovereignty. He answers, “Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” The wonder of election is not that God condemns innocent people. Scripture says none are righteous and all have sinned. The wonder is that God mercifully saves any. We can condemn Edwards wherever his personal conduct was sinful, including slavery, without pretending those failures refute Romans 9, divine judgment, or sovereign grace. The issue is ultimately whether Scripture judges our moral intuitions, or our moral intuitions judge Scripture.
I suspect that those who support Edwards think him to be faithful to the Scriptures. However, his lurid speculations on the horrors of ECT go beyond anything in the Bible.
Hey River, I suppose it could just be misunderstanding what you’re trying to get across but how you’re defining unconditional election feels a little concerning. The way you are talking about hell and heaven is as if Hell is a place only bad people go to and Heaven is a place for good people. Christians have almost always argued that no one deserves Heaven, everyone deserves Hell and that God is perfectly just in condemning mankind to the consequences of their sin. That of course doesn’t mean we have to rejoice in that, I would be horrified if anyone said they were glad anyone were in Hell, yet that does not mean we can say it is not right for people who might have lived “good lives” to be condemned to Hell because they are still guilty of sin. If we say otherwise we risk becoming works based Pelagians for whom there is no reason for Christ to have died for
One of your finest livestreams. I have been thinking about the part where you said you would stand up and rebuke the preacher for slandering fatherhood in front of children. I am reminded of the events surrounding Anne Hutchinson's expulsion from the Massachusetts Bay Colony during the 'antinomian' controversy, which happened several decades prior to the birth of Jonathan Edwards. After being tried and banished from the colony, Anne Hutchinson's family went to Rhode Island. When her husband died a few years later, the family relocated to New Netherlands. Less than a year after settling in this new place, Anne Hutchinson and her kids were brutally murdered by Indians. Six of her children were killed in front of her. The seventh, Susanna, her nine year old daughter and the only survivor of this attack, was taken captive. The Indians thought that her red hair looked like beautiful autumn leaves, so they took her. She had a child by one of the Indians a year later, at age ten. As part of a peace treaty, Susanna was returned to her relatives four years later. She had forgotten how to speak English. The attack on the Hutchinson family happened only 6 years after she was initially banished for the Massachusetts's Bay Colony. The leadership of the colony attributed these events to divine justice. I think this context adds some weight to how brutally abusive Jonathan Edward's sermons were. To your point about rebuking Edwards, it would take a lot of courage to do that. There was apparently much more religious liberty by Edward's day, as in you wouldn't have been banished, but I imagine getting excommunicated from your church was still something those people would have been very afraid of. Also a wild note about the Anne Hutchinson story, the site of the massacre is in present day New York City. There is a park where sits a split boulder that was on their property, and next to the park is "Hutchinson Avenue". Just crazy to think that the sortof demonic sacrifice of the Hutchinson family happened in the place that would become the financial and cultural capitol of the modern global empire. Then, a successor to the men who abetted and praised this massacre became a highly influential preacher during the Great Awakening. Then, to this day there are deafening echos of his preaching in American evangelical churches, who are the base of support for the sortof demonic sacrifice that is happening today in the middle east.
I need to watch this still but want to take my time. Seems so worthwhile and well researched, what a gift and freedom that has poisoned so many people’s impression of God and faith
However I made a post when the video was still before airing and so it disappeared:
I would so appreciate if you could do a similar video on George Whitfield. I recently saw the “A Great Awakening” film and it helped urge me to fully embrace Anglicanism that I had been putting off and wrestling with for years and I find George Whitfield’s sermons and inspiration and impact on the American Founding, Great Awakenings, and Christian expansion to be quite the worthwhile rediscovery, certainly for our era
It was Jesus Himself who said in Matthew 26:24, “The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”
Indeed, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” John 3:36.
I find this to be a very early Church way of thinking. Even Athanasius said that if God created the world and didn't send Jesus to save us from our sins, but rather that he left it to rot without helping us, he says that would actually make God a monster.
I've never heard modern preachers talk like this. They always say that even if God never died on the cross, we wouldn't have any right to complain because we are reprobates anyway. Athanasius would staunchly disagree, he uses his own moral reasoning all the time and "puts God to the test" so to speak.
Perfectly reasonable thing to do, we should never sear our conscience.
God is both love and truth; you cannot separate one from the other or pit one against the other. Jesus, who perfectly reveals God’s love, also speaks about Hell and judgment more than anyone else in Scripture. It would be immoral not to introduce people to Jonathan Edwards — the consequences are real. I'm gonna listen to him right now, so I stay on the right track.
Years ago I was steeped in the Puritan tradition through the influence of preachers like John Piper. It seems to me that this kind of thinking isn’t unique to Edwards among the Puritans. I remember feeling anxiety over the genuineness of my faith because of reading theologians like Edwards, John Owen and Thomas Watson. I almost abandoned Christianity over this wicked theology. Praise God because he led me to Anglicanism and a right view of the Sacraments. I don’t know where I’d be now if I kept down that path.
I mean… Calvinism still clears every other theological system. It just so happens to be distasteful in certain ways.
Brothers in Christ ✝️❤️. Love God. Love your neighbor. God is love ❤️. Love is patient and kind.
This side of glory, none of us is perfect. Even jonathan edwards. But Jesus is perfect. ✝️❤️
Jonathan Edwards preached sinners in the hands of an angry God. And with George Whitefield, was part of the great awakening. ✨️
“He was product of his time.” So were the Pharisees. We’re not supposed to be products of this time, but of the kingdom of heaven. And as far as hell, Jesus preached hell, and more than others in Scripture, yes… BUT he did not preach to revel in it, but to SAVE us from it, as one would keep speaking to us that we’re in the wrong lane and if we don’t move over we’ll die. They don’t hate us, they love us! Truly an arch-heretic. Hopefully he got to see how truly wrong he was, in the presence of the all loving God
George Macdonald was exactly right about Edwards’ doctrine of God and hell. It is hard to think of a more wicked idea.
This is a much needed video. Chapter timestamps would be helpful.
God is love but the Bible is clear about him hating the wicked not just wickedness…. Maybe we can have some humility and realize Gods attributes are not fully comprehensible. With that said yeah a lot of people influenced by Edwards (like Piper and Paul Washer) are highly problematic teachers
That George McDonald quote against Edwards was very moving and certainly (to me at least) absolutely typified the soul and will of the Father
Aren’t you a universalist too tho, so even if your charges against Edwards are right you’re just as bad
Another fantastic stream.
Thank you River for being a contemporary voice to help me actually believe the popular evangelical slogan “God is good, all the time”. It’s no wonder these great “awakenings” were such short lived spurts in religiosity that ended in massive deconstruction and “burned over” districts. Fortunately God was able to wrought some good out of them but man you have to wonder what the church would be like if she wholesale adopted the theology of a Gregory of Nyssa or Isaac the Syrian
Listening to this honestly made me feel sorry for him. I know he probably caused much harm to others, and we need to sympathize with the victims, but clearly he himself was a victim of severe deception and confusion. I wonder what his post-mortem fate was…
JE believed God has to recreate the world every second for Him to be totally sovereign. Lol.
Hi River, great video. I’ve been enjoying a lot of your content. I’ve been thinking through many of the same theological issues as you have in terms of application of the sermon on the mount, prompted by readings of the ante-nicene Christians. I’m also an Anglican minister and would love the chance to chat 1:1 about the practical ministry consequences from some of these convictions. Is there a way for you to message with your email to arrange a chat? Every blessing. Ryan
On the topic of slavery, how do you think about Abraham’s treatment of Hagar? Abraham is regarded as a great figure in the Christian tradition but had intercourse with his female slave Hagar (which would essentially constitute rape). Although I have read a paper that suggests the biblical text holds Hagar in a high esteem, having her foreshadow the oppression of Israel under Egypt and the exodus. Although Paul’s allegorizing of her narrative seems to paint her in a more negative light in contrast.
Doesn't the Bible permit slavery?
I went to a Reformed Baptist church for several years growing up.
Johnathan Edwards was CONSTANTLY mentioned.
JE did a lot of spiritual damage on me and the congregation.
He does trickle down to some Southern Baptist Churches.
The SBC church I went to was called Grace Baptist. lol it was more like wrath Baptist and lack of grace.
THANK YOU FATHER RIVER for exposing this twisted way of thinking to put it mildly
This type of insecurity about salvation, and being inside or outside the true church. gave me constant panic attacks and heightened anxiety for a few months earlier this year, felt like I was constantly arguing with Satan himself. Thank the Lord for David Bentley Hart, even though I do not agree with everything he says. I now know there are other ways of seeing the world and humanity, rather than this totally depraved doom. I have taken a liking to Fr. John Behr and his writings. Suprised by Joy Fr. Aiden Kimel is another goody. St. Maximus, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Irenaeus, St. Athanasius have the goods too.
As soon as i saw the picture of that dear child of God on the wall, my heart warmed. I can't think of two more diametrically opposed portayals of our Lord than those of Edwards and MacDonald. Diametrically opossed, not as holiness against love, but as darkness against light.
Our God is holy, and fearsome – and nothing but good in his heart, so much more then we ever dare to believe. Looking forward to seeing this video in the coming time.
What’s up with the soyboy liberal vids lately?
Calvinism is the perfect blend of Kafka and Lovecraft.
You misrepresented why Edwards was dismissed in 1750, he was dismissed because he restored the standard of closed communion, only admitting those with a credible profession of faith. This is standard reformed teaching. He was going against his grandfather Solomon Stoddard’s teaching of the Halfway Covenant which was open communion to a level of having open unbelievers take communion because he saw it as a converting ordinance.
You would do well to read Edwards’s Freedom of the Will, Religious Affections, Charity and Its Fruits, his sermon Qualifications for a Full Communion in the Church, his sermon The Sovereignty of God in Salvation, his letter to James Robe on How God Gives us Assurance.
Edwards was nothing but a good Calvinist.
The central problem with this critique is that it places fallen human moral intuition above divine revelation. Edwards did not teach that God is mere arbitrary power, nor that the saints delight in suffering for suffering’s sake. He taught that God is perfectly holy, just, merciful, and sovereign, and that the redeemed will finally rejoice in the righteousness of His judgments. Revelation 19 itself depicts heaven praising God because “his judgments are true and just.”
And Romans 9 directly answers the objection to unconditional election: “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” Paul does not retreat from God’s sovereignty. He answers, “Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” The wonder of election is not that God condemns innocent people. Scripture says none are righteous and all have sinned. The wonder is that God mercifully saves any. We can condemn Edwards wherever his personal conduct was sinful, including slavery, without pretending those failures refute Romans 9, divine judgment, or sovereign grace. The issue is ultimately whether Scripture judges our moral intuitions, or our moral intuitions judge Scripture.
2:05:31 this is why I came. You did not let me down Rev.
I suspect that those who support Edwards think him to be faithful to the Scriptures. However, his lurid speculations on the horrors of ECT go beyond anything in the Bible.
Can you define what you mean by “good”? Sorry if I missed it in the video
Peak
I think Edwards is trying to offer an apologetic for double-predestination by making it even more horrific.
Excusing Edwards owning slaves because he was a product of his time is a lame excuse. John Wesley lived during the same time and was anti-slavery.
Hey River, I suppose it could just be misunderstanding what you’re trying to get across but how you’re defining unconditional election feels a little concerning. The way you are talking about hell and heaven is as if Hell is a place only bad people go to and Heaven is a place for good people. Christians have almost always argued that no one deserves Heaven, everyone deserves Hell and that God is perfectly just in condemning mankind to the consequences of their sin. That of course doesn’t mean we have to rejoice in that, I would be horrified if anyone said they were glad anyone were in Hell, yet that does not mean we can say it is not right for people who might have lived “good lives” to be condemned to Hell because they are still guilty of sin. If we say otherwise we risk becoming works based Pelagians for whom there is no reason for Christ to have died for
Hate. Is hate in the bible? A text without a context is a pretext. Scripture ✝️❤️ interprets scripture. Etcetera.
John Wesley preached with George Whitefield, until disappointments. But they remained friends. Wesley preached at Whitfield's funeral.
Five point, four point, three point calvinists must remain united in Christ with five point, four point, three point arminians. ✝️❤️
In essentials unity, in non essentials liberty, in all things charity. ✝️❤️
One of your finest livestreams. I have been thinking about the part where you said you would stand up and rebuke the preacher for slandering fatherhood in front of children. I am reminded of the events surrounding Anne Hutchinson's expulsion from the Massachusetts Bay Colony during the 'antinomian' controversy, which happened several decades prior to the birth of Jonathan Edwards. After being tried and banished from the colony, Anne Hutchinson's family went to Rhode Island. When her husband died a few years later, the family relocated to New Netherlands. Less than a year after settling in this new place, Anne Hutchinson and her kids were brutally murdered by Indians. Six of her children were killed in front of her. The seventh, Susanna, her nine year old daughter and the only survivor of this attack, was taken captive. The Indians thought that her red hair looked like beautiful autumn leaves, so they took her. She had a child by one of the Indians a year later, at age ten. As part of a peace treaty, Susanna was returned to her relatives four years later. She had forgotten how to speak English. The attack on the Hutchinson family happened only 6 years after she was initially banished for the Massachusetts's Bay Colony. The leadership of the colony attributed these events to divine justice.
I think this context adds some weight to how brutally abusive Jonathan Edward's sermons were. To your point about rebuking Edwards, it would take a lot of courage to do that. There was apparently much more religious liberty by Edward's day, as in you wouldn't have been banished, but I imagine getting excommunicated from your church was still something those people would have been very afraid of.
Also a wild note about the Anne Hutchinson story, the site of the massacre is in present day New York City. There is a park where sits a split boulder that was on their property, and next to the park is "Hutchinson Avenue". Just crazy to think that the sortof demonic sacrifice of the Hutchinson family happened in the place that would become the financial and cultural capitol of the modern global empire. Then, a successor to the men who abetted and praised this massacre became a highly influential preacher during the Great Awakening. Then, to this day there are deafening echos of his preaching in American evangelical churches, who are the base of support for the sortof demonic sacrifice that is happening today in the middle east.
I need to watch this still but want to take my time. Seems so worthwhile and well researched, what a gift and freedom that has poisoned so many people’s impression of God and faith
However I made a post when the video was still before airing and so it disappeared:
I would so appreciate if you could do a similar video on George Whitfield. I recently saw the “A Great Awakening” film and it helped urge me to fully embrace Anglicanism that I had been putting off and wrestling with for years and I find George Whitfield’s sermons and inspiration and impact on the American Founding, Great Awakenings, and Christian expansion to be quite the worthwhile rediscovery, certainly for our era
Paul Washer is the modern day Edwards…
I would like to imagine a children's Sunday School curriculum inspired by Rev Edwards.
It was Jesus Himself who said in Matthew 26:24, “The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”
Indeed, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” John 3:36.
I find this to be a very early Church way of thinking. Even Athanasius said that if God created the world and didn't send Jesus to save us from our sins, but rather that he left it to rot without helping us, he says that would actually make God a monster.
I've never heard modern preachers talk like this. They always say that even if God never died on the cross, we wouldn't have any right to complain because we are reprobates anyway. Athanasius would staunchly disagree, he uses his own moral reasoning all the time and "puts God to the test" so to speak.
Perfectly reasonable thing to do, we should never sear our conscience.