THIS was an amazing episode, John! Gonna be sharing this one. The way you simplify the history by connecting the dots is very helpful to me. Thank you so much! Are your visuals available to share?
Like all heretical sects, it starts in confusion and misbehavior, continues in it, and will eventually end in it. Look what happened to Armstrong's Worldwide Church Of God. That cult, which I was in for about under a decade, was always in turmoil. It was only held together by the personality of Herbert Armstrong. The so-called truths we were to believe in could be modified in an instant by him. After he died, his successors changed everything so much, it no longer resembled the faith taught by the founder. This caused massive splits on the Armstrong movement that created hundreds of sects. Only God knows what they will look like years from now.
50 years in the UPCI and I never heard this explained this well. They are certainly not “finished work” adherents, as people are expected to seek the third step of conversion, the spirit baptism, and continually renew it
A good in-depth look at this history that clears up much nonsense. What I disagree with is who Seymour really was. 1) He taught a heresy concerning sin that contradicts scripture. Jesus told us to confess our sins every day so we can receive forgiveness. Seymour was a heretic and our Bible condemns such! 2) He was a malicious narcissist who had a persona of being a falsely humble and nice guy. The evidence for that? Anyone who does not want unbelievers to be saved and who gives the middle finger rudely to those that are not following them, which he most certainly did, that is a definition of a proud arrogant man who is full of themselves. He only pretended to be humble until someone refused to follow in his heretical ways. This is how malignant narcissists sometimes work. Wimber pretended to be nice to everyone, but he too was full of himself thinking that he was "leading a move of God." If these are not ultimate arrogances I do not know what is. We are supposed to encourage people to follow Jesus, not us! I point this out because John is not seeing this stuff yet, though I believe he will but if no one says anything than how can he figure this out?
"It is finished" is one of the most misapplied Bible phrases in all of Christendom. If "it", as commonly misdefined, really is finished, then we are (1) not justified, (2) still dead in our sins, and (3) stuck in a bunch of other bad stuff. It's not just that point nos. 1-3 are provable from Scripture, it's that they are SO OBVIOUS that I cannot believe people nod their heads in agreement and swallow the "Finished work of Calvary" nonsense. When Jesus said, "It is finished", he was narrowly referring to his sacrifice for sins, and…
…NOTHING ELSE!!! If biblical illiteracy causes this to be shocking to you, please be "literated" by reading the following. Attention please! Three days AFTER Calvary, Jesus rose again from the dead. Without the resurrection, we are not justified (Ro 4:25), and we are still dead in our sins (1 Cor 15:17). So if all the things preachers say are finished were finished WHEN Jesus said "It is finished" (i.e. while he was on the cross), then we would have no hope of justification or resurrection. The atonement was necessary for our salvation, but it was not sufficient for our salvation. Without the resurrection, we are not saved.
And it gets worse. Ro 5.10: we are saved by Christ's life, not his death. Ro 6.4: as Christ was raised from the dead…so we too might walk in newness of life. Ro 6.8-11: we are dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. We receive none of the aforementioned if everything was finished at the cross.
And even 40 days after the resurrection, if Jesus had not ascended to heaven, neither the Apostles nor we would be able to receive the Holy Spirit (John 14:12, 15:26, 16:7).
When Jesus commanded the Apostles to go out into all the world and make disciples, they didn't say, "Why Lord? We thought you said everything was already finished." Why? Because they didn't believe "If is finished" included all the things today's nonsensical Christians sweep into that category. Yes, something very big was accomplished at the cross, but God's plan was for much more to be accomplished before you could say "it is finished" in a general sense.
I hope this makes biblical sense to you. If so, please start calling people out when the spout the nonsense phrase "finished work…", unless it is the one in a million times when they are narrowly referring to the atonement/sacrifice and limiting their context accordingly. But from what I've seen repeatedly ad nauseum in churchianity, 999,999 times out of a million, they are spouting unbiblical nonsense. It just sounds like a pious thing to say. They say it so often that their brains are totally disengaged from considering whether it is an appropriate application of scripture.
The UPCI WPF sec refer to you must speak in tongues as a second baptism! Jesus says to go and baptize in the name of the FATHER, SON AND HOLYGHOST! The UPCI WPF say to only baptize in Jesus name! They claim you must speak in tongues to be considered saved, but the apostle Paul says not all will speak in tounges! The UPCI WPF formula they invented in the early 1900s is wrong and considered heretical! Their constant revivals today are merly money pull special offerings for a 4 or 5 day shin dig with numerous fund raisers and free meals for the ministry! They also say its to save souls but hardly anyone shows up if at all, then they run once love bombed, assigned jobs, given service and work scedules for 3 to 5 nights per week, every week! Then told a demand of 15 percent of your pay check, just for starters! For some strange reason you wont see them again!
B"H — Hey John, I like your analysis of the theological foundation of Pentecostalism, but I was a bit disappointed that you didn't mention the response of Charles Fox Parham to Durham's "finished work" theology. This omission is not yours alone, but it continues to amaze me by its sheer irony. Parham openly stated, in the manner of Elijah before the prophets of Baal, that if what Durham was teaching, the "finished work " theology, then GOD should prove it by striking down the teacher of the wrong position. Sure enough, just about a year after taking that stance, Brother Durham died suddenly of pneumonia. Hardly anyone connects Durham's sudden passing with the divine ultimatum issued by Parham. Food for thought.
I had never heard of "Finished Work" as a thing, until now. Like "manifested sons of God", it's biblical it's a part of the vehicle, but, like putting a steering wheel on your hubcabs, it's misapplication.
You are lying John. You formed this explanation to bring the white man's position into the centre of the revival.
So you just tried to counter your previous videos. Stop playing smart. This your William Durham version is a fake representation of Azusa street and the latter rain movement that followed.
@roger and some Shanda Shanda Shanda. 😂
U r such a lying retwister of the truth
You change fact like Florence Crawford you must be related
THIS was an amazing episode, John! Gonna be sharing this one. The way you simplify the history by connecting the dots is very helpful to me. Thank you so much! Are your visuals available to share?
Hoosier daddy? No, my dad was born in Arkansas. His daddy was born in Crawfordsville, Indiana…. 😁
Durham’s “finished work” caused the 1911 split in my sect.
Another very helpful history
Like all heretical sects, it starts in confusion and misbehavior, continues in it, and will eventually end in it. Look what happened to Armstrong's Worldwide Church Of God. That cult, which I was in for about under a decade, was always in turmoil. It was only held together by the personality of Herbert Armstrong. The so-called truths we were to believe in could be modified in an instant by him. After he died, his successors changed everything so much, it no longer resembled the faith taught by the founder. This caused massive splits on the Armstrong movement that created hundreds of sects. Only God knows what they will look like years from now.
50 years in the UPCI and I never heard this explained this well. They are certainly not “finished work” adherents, as people are expected to seek the third step of conversion, the spirit baptism, and continually renew it
Another great video, John!
A good in-depth look at this history that clears up much nonsense. What I disagree with is who Seymour really was. 1) He taught a heresy concerning sin that contradicts scripture. Jesus told us to confess our sins every day so we can receive forgiveness. Seymour was a heretic and our Bible condemns such! 2) He was a malicious narcissist who had a persona of being a falsely humble and nice guy. The evidence for that? Anyone who does not want unbelievers to be saved and who gives the middle finger rudely to those that are not following them, which he most certainly did, that is a definition of a proud arrogant man who is full of themselves. He only pretended to be humble until someone refused to follow in his heretical ways. This is how malignant narcissists sometimes work. Wimber pretended to be nice to everyone, but he too was full of himself thinking that he was "leading a move of God." If these are not ultimate arrogances I do not know what is. We are supposed to encourage people to follow Jesus, not us! I point this out because John is not seeing this stuff yet, though I believe he will but if no one says anything than how can he figure this out?
Well done! Ex pentecostal here. Even went.to a PAOC Bible college. Im outta that nonsense!
The entire Pentecostal Movement is nothing but a "set of ideas" that God should accomplish immediately. This thinking puts man on God's Throne.
"It is finished" is one of the most misapplied Bible phrases in all of Christendom. If "it", as commonly misdefined, really is finished, then we are (1) not justified, (2) still dead in our sins, and (3) stuck in a bunch of other bad stuff. It's not just that point nos. 1-3 are provable from Scripture, it's that they are SO OBVIOUS that I cannot believe people nod their heads in agreement and swallow the "Finished work of Calvary" nonsense. When Jesus said, "It is finished", he was narrowly referring to his sacrifice for sins, and…
…NOTHING ELSE!!! If biblical illiteracy causes this to be shocking to you, please be "literated" by reading the following. Attention please! Three days AFTER Calvary, Jesus rose again from the dead. Without the resurrection, we are not justified (Ro 4:25), and we are still dead in our sins (1 Cor 15:17). So if all the things preachers say are finished were finished WHEN Jesus said "It is finished" (i.e. while he was on the cross), then we would have no hope of justification or resurrection. The atonement was necessary for our salvation, but it was not sufficient for our salvation. Without the resurrection, we are not saved.
And it gets worse. Ro 5.10: we are saved by Christ's life, not his death. Ro 6.4: as Christ was raised from the dead…so we too might walk in newness of life. Ro 6.8-11: we are dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. We receive none of the aforementioned if everything was finished at the cross.
And even 40 days after the resurrection, if Jesus had not ascended to heaven, neither the Apostles nor we would be able to receive the Holy Spirit (John 14:12, 15:26, 16:7).
When Jesus commanded the Apostles to go out into all the world and make disciples, they didn't say, "Why Lord? We thought you said everything was already finished." Why? Because they didn't believe "If is finished" included all the things today's nonsensical Christians sweep into that category. Yes, something very big was accomplished at the cross, but God's plan was for much more to be accomplished before you could say "it is finished" in a general sense.
I hope this makes biblical sense to you. If so, please start calling people out when the spout the nonsense phrase "finished work…", unless it is the one in a million times when they are narrowly referring to the atonement/sacrifice and limiting their context accordingly. But from what I've seen repeatedly ad nauseum in churchianity, 999,999 times out of a million, they are spouting unbiblical nonsense. It just sounds like a pious thing to say. They say it so often that their brains are totally disengaged from considering whether it is an appropriate application of scripture.
Just listened to this after talking today. Yet more info bringing light to the history of the PAOC and what I'm in.
Thanks for this info.
Excellent teaching!
And here at the end you had me thinking you were about to say that the Father of Lies was the father of the movement XD
The UPCI WPF sec refer to you must speak in tongues as a second baptism! Jesus says to go and baptize in the name of the FATHER, SON AND HOLYGHOST! The UPCI WPF say to only baptize in Jesus name! They claim you must speak in tongues to be considered saved, but the apostle Paul says not all will speak in tounges! The UPCI WPF formula they invented in the early 1900s is wrong and considered heretical! Their constant revivals today are merly money pull special offerings for a 4 or 5 day shin dig with numerous fund raisers and free meals for the ministry! They also say its to save souls but hardly anyone shows up if at all, then they run once love bombed, assigned jobs, given service and work scedules for 3 to 5 nights per week, every week! Then told a demand of 15 percent of your pay check, just for starters! For some strange reason you wont see them again!
B"H — Hey John, I like your analysis of the theological foundation of Pentecostalism, but I was a bit disappointed that you didn't mention the response of Charles Fox Parham to Durham's "finished work" theology. This omission is not yours alone, but it continues to amaze me by its sheer irony. Parham openly stated, in the manner of Elijah before the prophets of Baal, that if what Durham was teaching, the "finished work " theology, then GOD should prove it by striking down the teacher of the wrong position. Sure enough, just about a year after taking that stance, Brother Durham died suddenly of pneumonia. Hardly anyone connects Durham's sudden passing with the divine ultimatum issued by Parham. Food for thought.
Who'd've thought it could all be so silly!
I had never heard of "Finished Work" as a thing, until now. Like "manifested sons of God", it's biblical it's a part of the vehicle, but, like putting a steering wheel on your hubcabs, it's misapplication.
You are lying John. You formed this explanation to bring the white man's position into the centre of the revival.
So you just tried to counter your previous videos. Stop playing smart. This your William Durham version is a fake representation of Azusa street and the latter rain movement that followed.