While Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield were devoting their considerable gifts to the movement known as the Great …
45 COMMENTS
I am not a Weslyan but I found it amusing you re mentioning TULIP during this study of an Arminius , haha…. Romans 9 my dear brother talks about the election of Jacob over Esau and not for salvation but to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Paul is quoting Genesis 25:23 and God foreknowing Esau selling his birth rights. If i can indulge in mentioning how many times the Bible talks about men choosing I ll run out of ink.
Whitfield and Wesley loved and respected one another , when they asked Wesley if he will see Whitfield in heaven, Wesley replied : Whitfield will be so far ahead of me in heaven that I can only see his backside.
Not mentioned in this piece is the contribution that Eastern Orthodoxy made to Wesley. 1) The Moravians show their Eastern Orthodox origins by a) deleting the Filioque Clause from the Nicene Creed ; b) using Leavened Bread in Communion, c) Transubstantiation. (Indeed St. Jan Hus is claimed by the Ukrainian & Czech Orthodox); 2) The Wesley Brothers read a lot of Eastern Orthodox source material and heavily borrowed Orthodox Church Music for their Hymnolgy (John Wesly got a good dose of St. John Crysostom in the process) ; 3) Wesley were also well acquainted with Phillip Ludwell III and John Paradise, known members of the Russian Embassy Orthodox Embassy Church of London.
any one know of revival in U.S.A. going on now or a moving of the spirit or know of a website that tell about move of god in america i can not even find a site that even tells of what is going on pleases help
Love your channel mr. Gore, but beg to differ on TULIP ! 🙏
So I guess the prostitute Rehab was not approved for the new heavens and earth, since the gift of resurrected life (born again / new birth in the Spirit) was not won for her at that time, and she is doom to hell, and the writer of hebrews is apostate based on TULIP Hebrews 11
IT would also make God's words to Cain in Genesis 4:6-7 disengenuis!
Dear brother, Ive listened to your presentation about Whitfield and then immediately to John Wesley and I cannot but help notice the huge difference on how you presented the two, much of Wesleys life story was ignored and much of the focus was on the differences of his theology and the calvinistic theology. I think you did a great injustice to his life story comparing it to your presentation of Mr Whitefield. In short words I believe Mr. Gore you were biased in this part, I hope to see hear another presentation as that of J.C. Ryle
Is it possible for some to understand that we humans are not robots but are provided by God with the ability to CHOSE between good and evil? If we cannot chose, then God makes judgement on sentient robots who cannot behave good and so God is unjust.
I believe in predestination but dont agree with all the points of calvinism and do not consider myself. I also know that predestination does not take away free will. The whole mystery is very simple and Christ tried to tr all about it many times, however today, most of christianity compleatly misses it.
The whole point is that there are children of God, and there are children of satan. Children of God are not all Christian's, but for there sake the trueth is preached, eventually reaching them and bringing them to Christ. There nature as Gods children draws them to God. The nature of devil's children does not. There for each group still has free will, and by there own will choose what is closer to them because of there nature. It is all about the nature of a being.
As a Southern Baptist the TULIP teaching is understandable but the limited atonement is rather horrifying to me. John 3:16 tells me Jesus died for the whole world. I think so much of this is like the trinity … a mystery we can’t totally wrap our minds around.
Are there any theologians which say God elects/enlightens/saves those unbelievers who are repentant and willing to repent and follow Christ? As if to say, people have freewill to repent but not to believe, and God makes repentant (righteous) sinners believe whilst making unrepentant (wicked) sinners deluded.
Have you ever considered matching Romans 9;14 onward with 9;6-8 rather than 9;10-13? Verse 11 is referring to verse 7, saying that because the Scripture says the seed shall be 'called' (7) we know that Jews are not the children of Abraham/Israel (6-8) because being a Jew is not of being called. The promise was given to Isaac rather than Ishmael (9-10) and to Jacob rather than Esau (12-13) so if it is instead that all who are in the promised seed (Christ) are the children of Abraham then it is true that the seed was 'called'. He is saying that the fact that the Scripture says 'In Isaac your seed shall be called' does not fit with the idea that Jews are the children of Abraham and does fit with the idea that Christians are the children of Abraham.
The fact that God said he will have mercy on whom he chooses (15-16) is not linked to (11), it is linked to 6-8 just as 10-13 is linked to 6-8. The fact that God has mercy on whom he chooses is another reason to believe that being a Jew does not make you justified. Remember that 15 and 16 are put forward to prove 14. If 14 is about there being no unrighteousness in God condemning people to hell before they are even born or done evil (misuse of 11-13) then how does the fact that the Scripture says "God has mercy on whom he chooses" (15-16) prove there is no unrighteousness in that? It doesn't. Calvinism makes Romans 9 nonsense. It is saying that the Jews are told they are not the children of Abraham in their own Scripture because their Scripture says he will have mercy on whom he chooses but remaining in the first covenant (being a Jew) is of their own work/choice (not God's choice). So God is not unrighteous (14) as if he had forsaken the children of Israel (to whom the promises were made, 5) because Jews are not the children of Abraham (6-13) and their Scripture tells them this by telling them God chooses. It's similar to 3;1-8.
Romans is about how Jews were not the children of Abraham but in another sense they were. It is not teaching Calvinism or Faith Alone. It is saying God is not evil for forsaking the Jews (he had made promises to never forsake the children of Abraham) because being in the first covenant never made the person a child of Abraham (justified). I have some PDFs on my website. Romans and Galatians are some of the least relevant letters in the New Testament unless you are trying to sort out whether Christians need to be Jews and whether God broke his promises to the children of Abraham. https://we-obey-jesus.weebly.com/doctrine–pdfs.html
John Wesley was a good man. He preached the gospel in the mean streets of England. He prayed without ceasing. He visited prisons preaching the Gospel. The pope hated him. In today's world, we need people like John Wesley. What a godly man.
Bruce I love your teaching. I have been a Christian for three years now and your teaching here on total depravity was very helpful. The rest of your lectures on church history have been very insightful and encouraging. Thanks you for your efforts and inspiration.
The Methodists in the UK interview potential new ministers (hear them preach) the church council prayerfully vote to determine if they will be invited to become that church’s minister
Learning a lot from you sir. In my opinion through study, The second great awakening led to many cults. The emotionalism laid the groundwork for much of the bad theology of today. “Calvinism” or reformed theology is the most consistent with the Bible.
john the baptist stated: "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world" i believe that sin taken away by our Lord is blindness, He. Jesus. takes away the blindness and opens the eyes of the elect, Amen. Father God thank you for bruce's ministry who i hope to see you on the other side, Lord willing. Amen, even so, Come Lord Jesus.
Whenever I visited Oxford I had the great privilege of being taken into the room where the holy club met. Wesley’s experience of conversion was something very similar to Martin Luther.Luther said it was as if the gates of heaven were opened wide and I felt I had been born again.If you check out my playlist Bruce on John Wesley’s visit’s to Ireland I have visited and recorded many of those places. I have also done a wee recording of George Whitfield,who was the first Methodist preacher who visited my home town of Lisburn in 1751.Wesley preached in the Presbyterian meeting house in Lisburn just across the road from the first Wesleyan chapel 🙂
Total depravity is nonsense. We are all made in God's image, and as such, have the ability to choose or reject him. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
I'm really loving this whole series, and Bruce, you are a legend who God has gifted to teach. Thank you for your work and passionate teaching style. I have learnt so much about the church and God's faithful people through the years from this series and can't wait to dive into the next one I find…
It is sad to see how the church has become so mixed up in different denominations that all differ but claim to be correct. There should only be one church, and that should be the church of God. All the denominations do is confuse everyone and make people turn away because of it. The result of which in the extreme would be your Mormons and jehovah witnesses (who are the complete opposite of what their name suggests).
The only book we need is the word. The only church we should have is the church of God. But it is what it is and God is in control of His creation and church.
21:34 "… a gal preach .." Groan – not "we presbyterians." That lamentable egalitarianism is a PCUSA failure, not a general presbyterian practice. Thankfully the PCA and OPC, for example, still hew to biblical guidelines.
I have learned much from your lectures, Bruce. You seem like a generally knowledgeable man, and I'm grateful for your work. How you can be part of the PCUSA is a sad mystery to me, though.
Saying that there is only Arminian or Calvinism is like saying there is only Democrats and Republicans. There is a clear Biblical middle ground which most intellectuals like yourself refuse to look into.
I have never heard a Calvinist give the proper definition of an Arminian. I wonder why? Could it be that they like to be deceptive to win people over to their view? That is being dishonest. This is the part Calvinist fail to see.
Here is a prime example of the tricks Calvinist use. He states John 6:44. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And says that the word draws is a very strong word, and can be translated as drag. And he is correct; but it is not here translated drag because of the context. Also the very same Greek word is used again in John 12:32. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. The very same word and the very same meaning. One can be used just to prove Calvinism, and the other to prove Arminianism. This is why this debate is pointless. Both are wrong. You have to take the Bible as a whole to prove a Biblical Doctrine. You cannot cherry pick verses and call something a Doctrine. There is predestination, election, and there is also mans choice because the Bible says so. That is just the way it is. We need to discuss it in light of every scripture. Sola Scriptura. Right? Not what some church father or tradition says, but Scripture ALONE. 1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction.
This was the best lesson hour possible on the life, teaching, and interacting of John Wesley and George Whitfield that could possibly exist. It is truly a teaching work of inspiration by Holy Spirit in the body and mind of Bruce Gore. Being a Methodist myself for 37 of my 70 years, no fairer evaluation of faith-lead free will Arminian teaching vs. passive Calvinistic salvation could have been crafted by any Christian than what I just saw in this Bruce Gore video. My personal conclusion is that the Arm-Cal divide is a human misunderstanding of God's timeless saving grace by placing God in the constraints of the TIME dimension by humans, which God's eternity certainly is free from. I think that as science keeps progressing and exposing God's work in His vast Creation, the differences among Protestants on such delicate issues will fade.
BTW, Susannah Wesley, John and Charles' saintly mother, should be given earthly credit for the founding of the Methodist Church in America along with the works of her sons. Without her prayers and teachings, there would be little chance her poverty-stricken family would have impacted 19th Century America at all. I'm not mentioning England being spared the European multiple Revolutions of 1848 by John Wesley, who performed Whitfield-style revival and awakening of potential rebels for brevity sake.
The Presbyterian church of the post Christendom u.s now of unpayable national monetary and sin debts outside of a lawful New Covenant Kingdom should beware of the yeast of democracy remembering that the first demoncratic act was when a third of the angels elected to rebel against the Ancient of Days and HIS Throne. The proper stead of Angels is within the Kingdom of GOD and the proper stead of true and faithful Christians is within a new covenant Kingdom on earth in accordance with the LORD's own prayer, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." But anti new covenant Kingdoms on earth apostate christian outlaws of the fullness of the great apostasy falling away from the Kingdom can debate themselves away from great rewards in Heaven and right into greater and greater tribulations in this life and beyond.
Hey Bruce, do you reject the Gift of the Father — the Holy Spirit? Calvanists have given us a great work in breaking the bondage of the Roman Church but has produced another result in breaking the bond of the Holy Spirit. Presbyterians are affirmatively angry when introduced to the many manifest scriptures of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9. 2 Corinthians 11:5
I am not a Weslyan but I found it amusing you re mentioning TULIP during this study of an Arminius , haha…. Romans 9 my dear brother talks about the election of Jacob over Esau and not for salvation but to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Paul is quoting Genesis 25:23 and God foreknowing Esau selling his birth rights. If i can indulge in mentioning how many times the Bible talks about men choosing I ll run out of ink.
Whitfield and Wesley loved and respected one another , when they asked Wesley if he will see Whitfield in heaven, Wesley replied : Whitfield will be so far ahead of me in heaven that I can only see his backside.
Not mentioned in this piece is the contribution that Eastern Orthodoxy made to Wesley. 1) The Moravians show their Eastern Orthodox origins by a) deleting the Filioque Clause from the Nicene Creed ; b) using Leavened Bread in Communion, c) Transubstantiation. (Indeed St. Jan Hus is claimed by the Ukrainian & Czech Orthodox); 2) The Wesley Brothers read a lot of Eastern Orthodox source material and heavily borrowed Orthodox Church Music for their Hymnolgy (John Wesly got a good dose of St. John Crysostom in the process) ; 3) Wesley were also well acquainted with Phillip Ludwell III and John Paradise, known members of the Russian Embassy Orthodox Embassy Church of London.
any one know of revival in U.S.A. going on now or a moving of the spirit or know of a website that tell about move of god in america i can not even find a site that even tells of what is going on pleases help
Love your channel mr. Gore, but beg to differ on TULIP ! 🙏
So I guess the prostitute Rehab was not approved for the new heavens and earth, since the gift of resurrected life (born again / new birth in the Spirit) was not won for her at that time, and she is doom to hell, and the writer of hebrews is apostate based on TULIP
Hebrews 11
IT would also make God's words to Cain in Genesis 4:6-7 disengenuis!
That's why I'm not a Calvinst !
Shalom
👍🙏😊
Dear brother, Ive listened to your presentation about Whitfield and then immediately to John Wesley and I cannot but help notice the huge difference on how you presented the two, much of Wesleys life story was ignored and much of the focus was on the differences of his theology and the calvinistic theology.
I think you did a great injustice to his life story comparing it to your presentation of Mr Whitefield.
In short words I believe Mr. Gore you were biased in this part, I hope to see hear another presentation as that of J.C. Ryle
Is it possible for some to understand that we humans are not robots but are provided by God with the ability to CHOSE between good and evil? If we cannot chose, then God makes judgement on sentient robots who cannot behave good and so God is unjust.
Calvinism is a mechanical way of thinking. How poor a mind should be to embrace such an unintelligent, extremist and superficial doctrine.
Wrong interpretation of a part of arminian theology, right on many points. Wrong on calvinism wich is not biblical. Great resume of history.
As a Canadian it gives me some perverse pleasure to mention that John Wesley condemned the American Revolution.
Rest in heavenly peace John Wesley
I believe in predestination but dont agree with all the points of calvinism and do not consider myself. I also know that predestination does not take away free will. The whole mystery is very simple and Christ tried to tr all about it many times, however today, most of christianity compleatly misses it.
The whole point is that there are children of God, and there are children of satan. Children of God are not all Christian's, but for there sake the trueth is preached, eventually reaching them and bringing them to Christ. There nature as Gods children draws them to God. The nature of devil's children does not. There for each group still has free will, and by there own will choose what is closer to them because of there nature. It is all about the nature of a being.
Thank you for the message on John Wesley sir.
I’m a Pentecostal from the holiness movement and I have never heard of the holy club 🙂
Thank you so much for the class…love it ..i am a recent Calvinist convert
As a Southern Baptist the TULIP teaching is understandable but the limited atonement is rather horrifying to me. John 3:16 tells me Jesus died for the whole world. I think so much of this is like the trinity … a mystery we can’t totally wrap our minds around.
🙏
😮😇
Are there any theologians which say God elects/enlightens/saves those unbelievers who are repentant and willing to repent and follow Christ? As if to say, people have freewill to repent but not to believe, and God makes repentant (righteous) sinners believe whilst making unrepentant (wicked) sinners deluded.
Have you ever considered matching Romans 9;14 onward with 9;6-8 rather than 9;10-13? Verse 11 is referring to verse 7, saying that because the Scripture says the seed shall be 'called' (7) we know that Jews are not the children of Abraham/Israel (6-8) because being a Jew is not of being called. The promise was given to Isaac rather than Ishmael (9-10) and to Jacob rather than Esau (12-13) so if it is instead that all who are in the promised seed (Christ) are the children of Abraham then it is true that the seed was 'called'. He is saying that the fact that the Scripture says 'In Isaac your seed shall be called' does not fit with the idea that Jews are the children of Abraham and does fit with the idea that Christians are the children of Abraham.
The fact that God said he will have mercy on whom he chooses (15-16) is not linked to (11), it is linked to 6-8 just as 10-13 is linked to 6-8. The fact that God has mercy on whom he chooses is another reason to believe that being a Jew does not make you justified. Remember that 15 and 16 are put forward to prove 14. If 14 is about there being no unrighteousness in God condemning people to hell before they are even born or done evil (misuse of 11-13) then how does the fact that the Scripture says "God has mercy on whom he chooses" (15-16) prove there is no unrighteousness in that? It doesn't. Calvinism makes Romans 9 nonsense. It is saying that the Jews are told they are not the children of Abraham in their own Scripture because their Scripture says he will have mercy on whom he chooses but remaining in the first covenant (being a Jew) is of their own work/choice (not God's choice). So God is not unrighteous (14) as if he had forsaken the children of Israel (to whom the promises were made, 5) because Jews are not the children of Abraham (6-13) and their Scripture tells them this by telling them God chooses. It's similar to 3;1-8.
Romans is about how Jews were not the children of Abraham but in another sense they were. It is not teaching Calvinism or Faith Alone. It is saying God is not evil for forsaking the Jews (he had made promises to never forsake the children of Abraham) because being in the first covenant never made the person a child of Abraham (justified). I have some PDFs on my website. Romans and Galatians are some of the least relevant letters in the New Testament unless you are trying to sort out whether Christians need to be Jews and whether God broke his promises to the children of Abraham. https://we-obey-jesus.weebly.com/doctrine–pdfs.html
John Wesley was a good man. He preached the gospel in the mean streets of England. He prayed without ceasing. He visited prisons preaching the Gospel. The pope hated him. In today's world, we need people like John Wesley. What a godly man.
Is this the one that helped Harry potter? The ginger one?
the debtor prison thing was a source of procuring indentured labor
Bruce I love your teaching. I have been a Christian for three years now and your teaching here on total depravity was very helpful. The rest of your lectures on church history have been very insightful and encouraging. Thanks you for your efforts and inspiration.
The Methodists in the UK interview potential new ministers (hear them preach) the church council prayerfully vote to determine if they will be invited to become that church’s minister
Wait, gal preach?
Learning a lot from you sir. In my opinion through study,
The second great awakening led to many cults. The emotionalism laid the groundwork for much of the bad theology of today. “Calvinism” or reformed theology is the most consistent with the Bible.
john the baptist stated: "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world" i believe that sin taken away by our Lord is blindness, He. Jesus. takes away the blindness and opens the eyes of the elect, Amen. Father God thank you for bruce's ministry who i hope to see you on the other side, Lord willing. Amen, even so, Come Lord Jesus.
I heard that John Wesley has some issues with Augustus Toplady.
at the time of our death unto life, we will finally reach perfection: sinlessness. finally! Amen
100% agreement with bruce's sunday school closing remarks Amen
Whenever I visited Oxford I had the great privilege of being taken into the room where the holy club met. Wesley’s experience of conversion was something very similar to Martin Luther.Luther said it was as if the gates of heaven were opened wide and I felt I had been born again.If you check out my playlist Bruce on John Wesley’s visit’s to Ireland I have visited and recorded many of those places. I have also done a wee recording of George Whitfield,who was the first Methodist preacher who visited my home town of Lisburn in 1751.Wesley preached in the Presbyterian meeting house in Lisburn just across the road from the first Wesleyan chapel 🙂
Total depravity is nonsense. We are all made in God's image, and as such, have the ability to choose or reject him. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
I'm really loving this whole series, and Bruce, you are a legend who God has gifted to teach. Thank you for your work and passionate teaching style. I have learnt so much about the church and God's faithful people through the years from this series and can't wait to dive into the next one I find…
It is sad to see how the church has become so mixed up in different denominations that all differ but claim to be correct. There should only be one church, and that should be the church of God. All the denominations do is confuse everyone and make people turn away because of it. The result of which in the extreme would be your Mormons and jehovah witnesses (who are the complete opposite of what their name suggests).
The only book we need is the word. The only church we should have is the church of God. But it is what it is and God is in control of His creation and church.
Thanks again. All praise to God.
Listem to many of your lessons. Very very good. Disappointed to be told that i am not a calvinist because of my own vanity, you've never met me
21:34 "… a gal preach .." Groan – not "we presbyterians." That lamentable egalitarianism is a PCUSA failure, not a general presbyterian practice. Thankfully the PCA and OPC, for example, still hew to biblical guidelines.
I have learned much from your lectures, Bruce. You seem like a generally knowledgeable man, and I'm grateful for your work. How you can be part of the PCUSA is a sad mystery to me, though.
Saying that there is only Arminian or Calvinism is like saying there is only Democrats and Republicans.
There is a clear Biblical middle ground which most intellectuals like yourself refuse to look into.
I have never heard a Calvinist give the proper definition of an Arminian. I wonder why? Could it be that they like to be deceptive to win people over to their view? That is being dishonest. This is the part Calvinist fail to see.
Here is a prime example of the tricks Calvinist use. He states John 6:44. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And says that the word draws is a very strong word, and can be translated as drag. And he is correct; but it is not here translated drag because of the context. Also the very same Greek word is used again in John 12:32. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. The very same word and the very same meaning. One can be used just to prove Calvinism, and the other to prove Arminianism. This is why this debate is pointless. Both are wrong. You have to take the Bible as a whole to prove a Biblical Doctrine. You cannot cherry pick verses and call something a Doctrine. There is predestination, election, and there is also mans choice because the Bible says so. That is just the way it is. We need to discuss it in light of every scripture. Sola Scriptura. Right? Not what some church father or tradition says, but Scripture ALONE. 1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction.
This was the best lesson hour possible on the life, teaching, and interacting of John Wesley and George Whitfield that could possibly exist. It is truly a teaching work of inspiration by Holy Spirit in the body and mind of Bruce Gore. Being a Methodist myself for 37 of my 70 years, no fairer evaluation of faith-lead free will Arminian teaching vs. passive Calvinistic salvation could have been crafted by any Christian than what I just saw in this Bruce Gore video. My personal conclusion is that the Arm-Cal divide is a human misunderstanding of God's timeless saving grace by placing God in the constraints of the TIME dimension by humans, which God's eternity certainly is free from. I think that as science keeps progressing and exposing God's work in His vast Creation, the differences among Protestants on such delicate issues will fade.
BTW, Susannah Wesley, John and Charles' saintly mother, should be given earthly credit for the founding of the Methodist Church in America along with the works of her sons. Without her prayers and teachings, there would be little chance her poverty-stricken family would have impacted 19th Century America at all. I'm not mentioning England being spared the European multiple Revolutions of 1848 by John Wesley, who performed Whitfield-style revival and awakening of potential rebels for brevity sake.
The Presbyterian church of the post Christendom u.s now of unpayable national monetary and sin debts outside of a lawful New Covenant Kingdom should beware of the yeast of democracy remembering that the first demoncratic act was when a third of the angels elected to rebel against the Ancient of Days and HIS Throne. The proper stead of Angels is within the Kingdom of GOD and the proper stead of true and faithful Christians is within a new covenant Kingdom on earth in accordance with the LORD's own prayer, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." But anti new covenant Kingdoms on earth apostate christian outlaws of the fullness of the great apostasy falling away from the Kingdom can debate themselves away from great rewards in Heaven and right into greater and greater tribulations in this life and beyond.
Hey Bruce, do you reject the Gift of the Father — the Holy Spirit? Calvanists have given us a great work in breaking the bondage of the Roman Church but has produced another result in breaking the bond of the Holy Spirit. Presbyterians are affirmatively angry when introduced to the many manifest scriptures of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9. 2 Corinthians 11:5
Arminius believed in total depravity
Extremly great lecture!❤